Ich and/or velvet

[Indychiro21]

Hey guys I have been battling a parasite for literally over a year and a half in my FOWLR system (350 gallon system)

 

I thought I had it beat and then some major aggression seems to have exposed what I thought was a good to go tank

 

Here is whats been going on... I introduced some fish (about a year and a half ago) and one was sick with what appeared to be ich or possibly marine velvet. (did not have any signs of this prior to introduction into the tank and the fish was way too large to QT)

 

Anyways, fast forward to that point where I literally lost all my livestock... Annularis, Majestic, Purple Tang, Lionfish

 

Afterwards I had my tank go fallow for 90 days with nothing but an abalone crawling around in there with the pods eating algae.

 

I slowly started to introduce fish and everything was good until about 3 months after the introduction of the first fish did everything get sick again.... Lost all that livestock Annularis, Emperor, Purple Tang, mated pair of saddleback clowns, and a couple of heniochus.

 

Afterwards I did a huge water change (40%) and then waited another 90 days while continuing to do my normal water changes and regular husbandry

 

That brings us to this past February when I started introducing only QT'd fish... starting with a Lunare wrasse... I waited for 1 month and he has been perfect... I introduced the second fish being a QT's Naso tang and left it alone for another 3 weeks or so... everything was fine.... I introduced a QT'd powder blue tang... waited another 3-4 weeks and he has been perfectly fine... I then introduced a QT'd queen angel and the powder blue was not happy about this and went a little crazy... lots of fighting for a couple days.

 

Now all fish (especially the powder blue) look sick and its the same thing that I have had every. other. time.

 

QT process was the fish were kept in cupramine with the recommended sustained levels for 2 weeks prior to introduction into the display.

 

Symptoms this time are:

 

Wrasse - flashing only

Powder blue - cloudy fins and developing what appears to be slime coat sloughing off ( not white spots)

Naso - fin rot and shakes a bit like he is itchy

Queen - parks herself in front of the power head and moves around every once and a great while like she is itchy... also has a bit of a cloudy eye developing on one side.

 

I would appreciate any/ all advice... I have never had a tank in my 20 years of keeping fish do something like this...

 

Hopefully Trump has another one of those MOABs that he could direct solely at my aquarium because I am at my wits end.

[Gonzo620]

The shaking I believe is a sign of flukes. Prazipro treats this. Good thing about prazipro is it can be treated with cupramine safely.

[MrsBugmaster]

fish have to be in the copper treatment for 30 days to completely get rid of ich, two weeks in not long enough.

[MrsBugmaster]

Fish should be in QT for 4 to 6 weeks.)

 

I treat with cupramine for 30days, add prazi-pro (for flukes and other parasites)at same time and then a second prazi-pro treatment at end of copper treatment.

Then observe for another 2 weeks for other problems before putting in DT

 

Edit: You can verify flukes with a fresh water dip.

[Indychiro21]

I appreciate the help!

 

I purchased and dosed with prazipro initially as I thought it could have been flukes as well, but symptoms only got worse after dosing prazipro as it probably stressed them out a bit.

 

Since then I did a 60 gallon water change and started dosing paraguard everyday.

 

Things are definitely improving, but I know this is not a long term solution.

 

Update:

 

Naso's black spots by his gills have disappeared for the most part and I have not seen him shake... yet. (black spots which I assume is black ich appeared by both of his gills after writing my initial post)

Queen Angel's cloudy eye is faintly still present but I would say a 70% reduction in the cloudiness

Wrasse I have not seen flash on anything... yet.

Powder Blue is still looking a bit rough as he has some white spots (5 or so), but his slime coat doesn't appear to be sloughing off as it was before.... not sure if that's really what was going on but thats what it looked like.

 

Everyone is still eating everything.

[splix]

I'm voting for flukes. My tank is primarily angels and I've had flukes before. They're not a huge issue if you take care of them, but if let go, they can become a problem. The tell tell sign of flukes is shaking their head and scratching their gills. Like said above, copper wont kill flukes, only prazipro and formalin will.

 

Powder blues....they basically generate ich. No matter what you do, you will always see ich break out on a PBT every now and then. Usually it's not bad if stress is under control.

 

Since you're FOWLR you can prazi bomb your main display without worry. I'd probably run prazi in the main tank if I were you for a few weeks to clear out the flukes. It does sound like you have ich going on as well though with the cloudy eyes.

[Indychiro21]

Sorry I haven't updated in awhile... Tried a freshwater bath but catching sick fish in a 250 gallon is not exactly easy.

 

Dipped them and I really did not see anything fall off of them or at the bottom of the bucket. (also never seen a fluke before so who knows)

 

3 of the 4 ended up dying that night and I found them the following day. RIP.

 

Since then I have the wrasse left and I have ran prazi for a couple weeks just in case flukes are a main issue.

 

The wrasse is doing fine, swimming about the tank, eating everything.... He is still flashing quite a bit so at this point I think I can rule flukes out.

 

The wrasse has never shown any fin spots or cloudiness of eyes or anything like some of the others.

 

He does exhibit the flashing and yawning every now and again.

 

This (disease) has been plaguing my tank for about a year and a half now.... Not sure if I just need to do a whole system reset or what.

 

Advice/ thoughts?

[3FordFamily]

You're dealing with velvet --- I agree, at least 30 days of daily tested fully therapeutic levels of copper is critical. For cupramine that's .55, and coppersafe or similar copper products about 2.25 ppm.

 

The powerhead swimming, and timeline of deaths, and how seriously afflicted the fish are is what makes me absolutely positive.

 

Velvet is everywhere these days, you cannot buy a fish from an LFS without it it seems like. Online isn't much better. Some wrasse can build a strong resistance to it but almost all angels and tangs cannot.

 

Sorry for your troubles, I too have been there.

 

For me, it was cross contaminating my tanks. I found it was my arm going in and out of the tanks, and nets that would bring velvet back to my display after proper treatment. Very frustrating (and common sense now, in retrospect)

[Indychiro21]

Thats what I thought originally as well (that it was velvet)

 

It did make me wonder though since it has not wiped out my whole tank...

 

Also I have had a purple tang and a lionfish live through this a few times over... they were the original "carriers" (not currently in the tank anymore)

 

They would break out with all of the symptoms and all the other fish would die off.... then they would recover. It wasn't until I broke down the tank, caught them, and put them into a QT that they died. (my error)

 

Others in this reef community as well as other reef communities have said that velvet will kill all the fish really quickly and will essentially spare none.

 

All my fish are typically living around 2-4 months in the tank... eventually get all the said symptoms and then die. (with exception of the purple tang, lionfish, and now this wrasse)

 

Good call on the cross contamination... I could be guilty of that as far as reusing water change device etc... which would then make that fallow period not so fallow... hmmm

 

Still thinking velvet? If so, what worked for you for the DT?

 

Another 90 days of fallow and catching this wrasse and treating with Cu?

 

I also saw a video of the LAfishguy on youtube where he treats all his FOWLR with copper... sounds crazy but he does have his own tank cleaning business etc... so I wasn't sure.

 

Why not dose the display tank with Cu? Especially if you have to keep dosing a QT to maintain the levels of Cu.... wouldn't it just go away eventually with water changes and carbon?

 

Grasping at straws here....

[3FordFamily]

Regarding velvet, some fish can build a strong resistance to velvet. Typically not tangs, but wrasse are well equipped and can perhaps 1/3 of the time depending on species. The problem with this is that this fish will become a carrier m, which will lead to any new fish you add being infected by this parasite and likely perishing. This will continue forever.

 

I would qt again, much easier.

 

I've used copper in the display and removed with 95% water changes, polyfilter, cuprisorb, and carbon - lots of work and media required. Also takes a long time to get copper to therapeutic levels, and once there it's very volitile-- so you'll have to dose copper to therapeutic dose and test daily to bring it back up. It'll have to be ABOVE the therapeutic range to weather the fluctuations because any time it drops below therapeutic dose for even an hour you need to restart the 30 day clock. I would do 60 in a DT to be safe, anyway.

 

It's a real pain and it'll kill all of your inverts and make your rock far less beautiful. It can cause dieoff of various organisms causing water to foul quickly initially, so you'll need an ammonia alert badge by seachem to monitor ammonia.

 

It can be done, but I would recommend the QT and fallow...

[3FordFamily]

I actually had a wrasse tank that developed velvet for a full year, I lost about half of my wrasse over that time, and my rare blonde naso build up a resistance as well. Any fish I added perished, however. Wrasse that slept in a mucous cocoon and or under the sand seemed to fare the best. The fairy and flashers slowly died off, the leopards and halichoeres genus wrasse like melanarus did well. The blonde naso was an anomaly. I added one fairy wrasse to my big bunch and he brought in velvet. The naso somehow was unaffected, they're often a susceptible fish but if exposed repeatedly they can also build a resistance on rare occasions to velvet (he came from Petco)

[Indychiro21]

Interesting... That would explain the 3 fish over the 1.5-2 years who keep surviving and really showing no symptoms.

 

Copper in the DT is/has been my last resort.

 

I think I will try to catch the wrasse and put him in a QT while leaving the tank fallow one more time.

 

I really appreciate the advice! This has been by far the most difficult disease I have dealt with.

[Indychiro21]

How would you go about sterilizing your equipment that could possibly be infected? I was thinking of a vinegar soak would possibly do the trick but wasn't sure if there was something better. (nets, vac, etc)

 

While going fallow, do you still do water changes? If so, how do you go about not infecting the water a week or two later with the vac you just used?

[MrsBugmaster]

I keep a bucket of tap water with a little bleach(cap full of bleach per 1 gals of water) in it in a bathtub and just toss equipment in it and leave for at least a hour, sometimes it is over night cause I get busy and forget it. Then rinse well with fresh tap water and let it dry. I hang vac hose over shower curtain rod to dry. I have two pieces of everything, nets, vac hoses, ect so I have one ready to go all the time. The equipment is pretty cheap to buy so it is not too much money to have 2 sets. And this gives me piece of mind of not cross contaminating. You don't need to change water in DT while doing fallow for 76 to 90 days(I go 90 days) But do large water change at end of fallow time before putting fish back in.

[3FordFamily]

I agree with everything she said^^

 

I will also add that sticking hands in one tank to another will absolutely cross contaminate. Learned that lesson twice. Soap and water didn't do it, even.

 

So I fed my tangs nori in the AM in the clean tanks and QT in the afternoon after my arm dried out and has been washed.