A Different Approach to Removing Phosphates

[Dustin1300]

Before bringing my system fully online, one of my concerns was keeping nutrients in check without doing major water changes on a very regular basis. That being said, I chose Lanthanum Chloride for dosing to remove phosphates based on some limited articles I could find on the subject and the performance/price ratio. Something to note is LaCl is DANGEROUS if not administered correctly. It binds to phosphorous in the water and creates a precipitate which can kill high respiration fish (i.e. tangs), sponges, and many other filter feeders.

 

What's needed?!

 

- LaCl - SeaKlear Commercial Pool Phosphate Remover

- 5/10 Micron Filter Socks (Anything larger and you won't catch the precipitate)

- Some form of dosing (Container with gravity feed, Drew's doser, dosing pump)

- Hanna ULR Phosphorous Checker (This is REQUIRED, otherwise you cannot accurately dose safely)

 

That's it! You can make the system more elaborate as long as you remove the precipitate.

 

My first trials with LaCl lead me to bringing down phosphates from time to time with a manual drip of a couple liters into my overflow which then fed to filter socks. In a 12 hour period, I could turn .08 ppm to .03 ppm on a 300 gallon system. This is why I cannot stress this enough, it's potent and should be taken VERY SERIOUSLY. In those drops, I was dowing 2 liters of RO/DI with only 2 mL of LaCl. (That goes to show how powerful it really is...)

 

Current Continuous Maintenance Dose

 

Saturday before last I brought my 600 gallon DT online and have nearly 1,000 gallons of SW going. Once I tied my systems together to the 1,000 gallons my phosphates were .05 ppm. After two days of dripping 1.1 mL/hour my phosphates were down to .02 ppm. At that point I dialed it back to 1.1 mL every two hours and phosphates dropped further to .0061 ppm. I've since lowered to 1.1 mL every 5 hours and holding strong. Current bioload is next to nothing (8 Fish) so it's not a miracle thus far but many people are using it now in varying forms with great sucess and is MUCH cheaper than using GFO.

 

LaCl above Skimmer. It's 1% dillution so 1mL of SeaKlear to 1000mL of RO/DI.

 

Drew's Doser.

 

Whole setup. Feeds directly to output of skimmer which then goes about 12 feet to sump.

 

I designed filter sock holder which has feed from skimmer and overflow emergency and then feeds to three 10 micron filter socks. Designed to make for easier filter sock changes along with a place for float switch to shut down dosing and text/e-mail me to tell me to change socks if I've overlooked them overflowing.

 

 

Built and flame polished edges.

 

In operation.

 

I plan to test for phosphates once a week to ensure the dosing is on par with what I'd expect for a maintenance dose. Dosing too fast and dropping phosphates too fast can also cause zooxanthellae bail out which will lead to loss of color in corals and possibly worse. I mention all these things so you're informed. I recommend this method on larger tanks and in extreme moderation on a smaller system.

 

Lastly...Costs! 946 mL of SeaKlear will produce 946.94 Liters of solution. At 1.1 mL of diluted solution every four hours this would last 357 years if my calculations are right. I don't expect this dosage to maintain phosphates as bioloads increase but based on other systems using LaCl, believe that a dosage of 5.5 mL/hour will maintain phosphates. I hope that this might help others and ask questions before trying if you decide to do so.

 

WARNINGS

• Cloudy water is a bad sign as it means your dosing too much too fast.
• Dropping phosphates too fast can cause zooxanthellae bail out.
• Not catching precipitate can be dangerous to livestock.
• Not using lab grade phosphate equipment or hanna ULR phosphorous checker could result in overdose.

[Reefer82]

If I have a barren tank with just rock would it be safe to go with a higher dose to speed up the process...though I'm not really sure that's even necessary.

[Dustin1300]

If I have a barren tank with just rock would it be safe to go with a higher dose to speed up the process...though I'm not really sure that's even necessary.

I would keep dose down if its in tank. If you want to increase this method can be safely dosed more heavily to cure rock and pull phosphates out in tub, brute, etc where you will remove rock and rinse before moving to tank.

[Msr224]

If I have a barren tank with just rock would it be safe to go with a higher dose to speed up the process...though I'm not really sure that's even necessary.

 

You need to be sure it's necessary before dosing it. Check it with a hanna ULR phosphate checker.

[Msr224]

Dustin, Great thread and I am glad you posted it. I have been using it off and on since we talked about it and I did some research. No adverse affects BUT I am getting some residual leaching if I don't stay up on dosing about once every 2 weeks.

[Dustin1300]

Dustin, Great thread and I am glad you posted it. I have been using it off and on since we talked about it and I did some research. No adverse affects BUT I am getting some residual leaching if I don't stay up on dosing about once every 2 weeks.

When you say leaching, Id assume you mean from other sources. The ph the precipitate will break down at is very low and you would not have any inhabitants left. Believe it's at ph between 5-6 or lower. (Lower than any CR should be running at!)

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 4.

 

 

[Reefer82]

I would keep dose down if its in tank. If you want to increase this method can be safely dosed more heavily to cure rock and pull phosphates out in tub, brute, etc where you will remove rock and rinse before moving to tank.

Thia rock isn't in the display, its a holding tank and has been running for a couple months. I forget the exact reading w the salifert but phosphate was up there. I forgot to get the ULR meter the last time I was at PA. Maybe JR will let me borrow his

[Dustin1300]

You could dose 1mL at a time and just let it run a couple days, test again and dose accordingly. When you pull out the phosphates from the water it will mean the rock will leach it out more readily as the rock/water sort of meet an equilibrium if that makes sense. Good luck and share your success!

[Msr224]

When you say leaching, Id assume you mean from other sources. The ph the precipitate will break down at is very low and you would not have any inhabitants left. Believe it's at ph between 5-6 or lower. (Lower than any CR should be running at!)

 

Sent from my Galaxy S4 using Tapatalk 4.

 

 

You could dose 1mL at a time and just let it run a couple days, test again and dose accordingly. When you pull out the phosphates from the water it will mean the rock will leach it out more readily as the rock/water sort of meet an equilibrium if that makes sense. Good luck and share your success!

 

What I meant was exactly what you said in your second post. I think I'm getting residual out of the rocks and sand. The next tank will have the sand stirred regularly to help alleviate this problem. I also blow off the live rock when doing a WC about a 1/2 hours before so that the sock can catch and remove as much as possible.

[Dustin1300]

Here's correct drawing of what I built. Updated from my first revision above.

 

[pwoller]

Off topic. Are you going to finish the walls in your fish room?

[Dustin1300]

Off topic. Are you going to finish the walls in your fish room?

 

No plans to. If humidity is your concern, using a nice humidistat and exhaust to keep humidity around 40-50%. At full speed, believe the fan turns over the whole rooms air in 4-5 minutes.

 

 

 

[Blackacid]

you skimmer reminds me of a Dalek. Very nice write-up.

[invert]

you skimmer reminds me of a Dalek. Very nice write-up.

+1 lol, it does.

[Jaco]

This makes me want to test my phophates.

[JWags911SC]

Looks like a great writeup and article, I hope I can use something like this design on a smaller scale someday. If I am understanding the setup correctly, the LaCl will precipitate and be caught by the 5 micron filter socks? Is there a chance that the precipitate would occur after it has already gone through the socks or does LaCl cause this reaction very quickly?

 

On a side note, is that skimmer your own design? Amazing piece of engineering you have there and looks like it is made for the long haul!

[jesterisdead]

I blow my tank up and kill everything in. Sounds like to much work here and too great a chance for something to go wrong.

 

Your all amazing for doing this.

[Dustin1300]

you skimmer reminds me of a Dalek. Very nice write-up.

 

+1 lol, it does.

 

No dalek would stand a chance against this beast, he'd foam them to death!

 

Looks like a great writeup and article, I hope I can use something like this design on a smaller scale someday. If I am understanding the setup correctly, the LaCl will precipitate and be caught by the 5 micron filter socks? Is there a chance that the precipitate would occur after it has already gone through the socks or does LaCl cause this reaction very quickly?

 

On a side note, is that skimmer your own design? Amazing piece of engineering you have there and looks like it is made for the long haul!

 

You can use on a smaller scale, just have to be very careful to not move too quickly (Like anything in this hobby!) It does get caught by the socks and I'm using 10 micron socks from a distributor that sells them for making diesel. Precipitate can happen after the sock and is why it's important to figure out your system's needs. If your still dosing and phosphates are wiped out, then you'll be feeding it straight into tank. Cloudy water would be the result. (There are products such as this one from Brightwell which are marketed for the hobby with the premium hobby price. They instruct to pour the product directly into the aquarium and is a dangerous practice. I've heard of many people losing fish due to overdose and precipitate in the DT and is not something I'd recommend.

 

As far as the skimmer, not my design but wish I had the brilliancy that Bill has. Bill Wann (Aquarium Engineering) built a custom skimmer/CR for me and he specializes in large reefs or public aquariums. His reef for example is the largest privately owned in the U.S. and measures 25'X10'X10' and total system volume is over 25k gallons. His products are amazing and he's a great guy with an amazing talent in engineering anything he wants.

 

I blow my tank up and kill everything in. Sounds like to much work here and too great a chance for something to go wrong.

 

Your all amazing for doing this.

 

Hard work pays off in the end! It's not really that hard, I just wanted to emphasize the importance of some of the points so no one makes plunge and does not take warnings seriously. I find the topic relatively safe and would consider a calcium reactor more of a risk!

[pwoller]

 

No plans to. If humidity is your concern, using a nice humidistat and exhaust to keep humidity around 40-50%. At full speed, believe the fan turns over the whole rooms air in 4-5 minutes.

 

 

 

I was concerned with the moisture and mold that might grow. I guess there isn't much you can do until you see if it presents a problem.

[Dustin1300]

I was concerned with the moisture and mold that might grow. I guess there isn't much you can do until you see if it presents a problem.

Don't see it being a problem. In addition to the fan I run a dehumidifier 24/7 that's rated for 2-3 times the size of my basement. Humidity also is more of a problem when it's warmer and ambient temperature in basement is 72-75 so far. If humidity was 70% is be worried but not close.

[Dustin1300]

I just wanted to post an update. I've been using the continually dosing method for a few months now and it's been working like a charm. I've got about 100+ filter socks I keep in rotation and simply pull out the dirty three socks every 1-2 days followed by some new ones I pop in the tray. As far as the maintenance dose, I do 1/3 mL of the diluted LaCl solution an hour (1 mL of LaCl to 1000 mL of RO/DI) and it's keeping a 1,000 gallon system's phosphates solid at .03-.05ppm! Don't know how much money it has saved me so far but would say $150 worth of filter socks and a $30 bottle of LaCl will go much longer than that much GFO would have lasted!

[Reefhappy]

Dustin, I have been thinking of trying the LaCl out and was wandering your thoughts on just dripping direct into my filter socks? Of course I would have to buy some 10micron (using 100 now) Can't stop tinkering and trying new things and know one of these days the Gods of Aquaria will make me pay!

Only way I think I could use it, in m small area to set a drip. I think it is also where I would have the most contact with the tank water.

[Dustin1300]

Dustin, I have been thinking of trying the LaCl out and was wandering your thoughts on just dripping direct into my filter socks? Of course I would have to buy some 10micron (using 100 now) Can't stop tinkering and trying new things and know one of these days the Gods of Aquaria will make me pay!

Only way I think I could use it, in m small area to set a drip. I think it is also where I would have the most contact with the tank water.

 

When I was just dripping from time to time, I'd drip directly into the overflow pipe and that'd act as the reaction chamber so the water and LaCl could easily mix together. Then those overflows dropped directly into the filter sock where it filtered out the precipitate. Would that work? I'd just recommend it go through something more turbulent before hitting the filter sock if that makes sense?

[Reefhappy]

It could.... Wouldn't want to continually do it as it would be an eye sore in my living room. But, as part of my routine maintenance, Maybe dosing diluted solution in 2 liters over a 24hr period, once a week or whatever is needed. Would something like that work? Guess I could hook up another RPM to the LM3 and have it dose into the overflow, without much problem.

[Dustin1300]

I was just doing a biweekly dose for a while and it'd drop the Phosphates out quickly (Just don't do too quickly) You could start with a 2 liter RO/DI drip with 1 mL of LaCl and that'd work. Probably let that drip over a 12-24 hour period and test phosphates before/after.

 

Here's where I located the filter socks: http://stores.ebay.com/DudaDiesel-Alternative-Energy/Bag-Filters-/_i.html?_fsub=17113785&_sid=97361327&_trksid=p4634.c0.m322

 

As far as LaCl, I could just give you some as you don't need a huge bottle of it. I'm thinking my $30 bottle would last me 10 years but I've given several people some for curing rock or trying it out for phosphates.