Help me build algae scrubber

[Andersonreefer]

Hello everyone I am pretty new to the hobby and really frustrated with my algae issue in my reef tank it's a 125g with a 55 gal sump/ with chaeto in it I use ro water and do everything I know and still have problems with algae I was wondering if there was anyone willing to come to Anderson and look at my system and see if we can figure this out!! I have seriously been thinking about building a cheap algae scrubber but it almost sounds to simple if you have any insight and would be so kind as to help us out it would be appreciated

[Dustin1300]

I don't think an ATS is the solution IMO. I run one on my new system I set up but it will just serve as supplementary filtration. Need to figure out what the source of the nutrients are and know more about your system.

 

- What are your params? Nitrates and Phosphates specifically

- Photoperiod and lighting? Last bulb replacement?

- Water change frequency?

- RO only or do you have DI? What is the TDS of the water after filtration?

- How much do you feed daily?

- What equipment do you have? Skimmer, reactors, etc?

 

Things take time in the hobby so don't expect an ATS to answer all the problems, I've not been convinced of that in any way.

[sdebord]

+1 to Dustin's questions.

 

You feed fish and corals, which brings in the nutrients nitrates and phosphates. How do you test for them, what are their levels, and how do you export those nutrients?

 

It's possible that Nitrate can be naturally reduced via anarobes, with light feeding, lots of live rock, and some luck with anarobic bacteria. Phospates can be more troublesome - here is a good article to explain them.

[larry]

All that being said I used an ATS on my first tank and loved the results. I was actually only using an ATS and carbon in a media bag. You still need to determine what is causing your levels to be high, but an ATS can be an effective way of running a tank. 1 of the hundred correct ways to do things in this hobby.

[Dustin1300]

All that being said I used an ATS on my first tank and loved the results. I was actually only using an ATS and carbon in a media bag. You still need to determine what is causing your levels to be high, but an ATS can be an effective way of running a tank. 1 of the hundred correct ways to do things in this hobby.

 

+1 to Larry. Many ways to have a successful tank in this hobby so don't let anyone tell you a certain method will not work. With ATS, I'm still a skeptic as I've not seen a lot of nice SPS tanks with them...Seems more often than not you see softies, zoas, and LPS mainly, not SPS. Some still use bioballs...If you understand the technology behind it and what is required to be successful with it, then go for it!

 

I don't think I'll ever get rid of skimmer, I just use the ATS to help drive down nitrates/phosphates and save me water changes/GFO.

[orlando809]

+1 to Larry. Many ways to have a successful tank in this hobby so don't let anyone tell you a certain method will not work. With ATS, I'm still a skeptic as I've not seen a lot of nice SPS tanks with them...Seems more often than not you see softies, zoas, and LPS mainly, not SPS. Some still use bioballs...If you understand the technology behind it and what is required to be successful with it, then go for it!

 

I don't think I'll ever get rid of skimmer, I just use the ATS to help drive down nitrates/phosphates and save me water changes/GFO.

 

Agreed

[Anthozoan]

I've been reading up on these but haven't yet built anything as I haven't set up a tank yet. There are three basic designs. The original uses a dump bucket on a weighted arm to alternately fill and empty a scoop with an algae encrusted screen in it. The screen is illuminated. The idea is that the alternating exposure to air and tank water along with a strong light gives the algae a boost. An alternate design has the water flowing down to a teeter-totter setup with a scoop/dump bucket on each side. The side currently up is angled so that it receives all the water until it reaches the tipping point bringing up the other bucket. Both sides have algae growing screens.

 

A second design is the "santa monica" water-fall scrubber. It has tank water cascading down a screen at large flow rates with intense lighting. If at all possible, both sides are lit to promote the most rapid growth. The idea is that the extremely rapid flow rate coupled with the intense lighting causes algae growing on the screen to out-compete any other non-calcerous algae in the setup.

 

The main advantage of the latter design is that it's been tested to death in hundreds of hobbyist settings so the theory and practical aspects are pretty thoroughly understood. "Floyd R Turbo" is the go-to guy for practical questions on this type. The other main advantage is ease of setup. All you need is a water feed to your screen and a couple of CFL holding lamps and a bucket for the water to land in. The only catch is that you have to be able to cut a reasonably neat slot in a chunk of pvc pipe to fit the screen into for the water outlet.

 

A third type of scrubber that's really new is a bubble up-flow (UAS) scrubber. There's slow water flow past the screen from one side to the other to expose tank water to the algae. The bottom of the screen has an air stone attached to bubble air up against the screen to provide turbulence for constant water exchange as well as CO2 to the algae. That one is pretty new so there are only a dozen or so folks actively experimenting at this point. I'd personally wait until that is much better understood so that you can get good troubleshooting tips.

 

Santa Monica has his own site set up where you can find lots of info at http://algaescrubber.net/forums/forum.php

[fish clown]

Hello everyone I am pretty new to the hobby and really frustrated with my algae issue in my reef tank it's a 125g with a 55 gal sump/ with chaeto in it I use ro water and do everything I know and still have problems with algae I was wondering if there was anyone willing to come to Anderson and look at my system and see if we can figure this out!! I have seriously been thinking about building a cheap algae scrubber but it almost sounds to simple if you have any insight and would be so kind as to help us out it would be appreciated

Im in the same boat with this. I am having more alege than I want and I went to the Reef and tested my water and my phosphates were high, so they told me to drain my food to get all the juice stuff and that sould lower phosphates over time. I was also very interested in this thread because I am planing on building a ATS mainly to lower the amount of water changes i have to do.

[Andersonreefer]

Ok so yeah had another member come by and help with my tank we are supposed to build and install an ats Monday. I drain and rinse my food and still have high phos I will let you know how well it works should only cost about 10 bucks

[sdebord]

Im in the same boat with this. I am having more alege than I want and I went to the Reef and tested my water and my phosphates were high, so they told me to drain my food to get all the juice stuff and that sould lower phosphates over time. I was also very interested in this thread because I am planing on building a ATS mainly to lower the amount of water changes i have to do.

 

Rinsing foods is pretty much a waste of time in the big picture of nutrient control. Feeding is overwhelmingly the largest source. Rinsing may reduce nutrients by 1% typically. I still do it though, lol!

 

 

A great thread and article that explains it in this RC thread and RHF article.

 

IME, Algae scrubbers are great if your goals are to keep fish and softies. GL!

[fish clown]

Rinsing foods is pretty much a waste of time in the big picture of nutrient control. Feeding is overwhelmingly the largest source. Rinsing may reduce nutrients by 1% typically. I still do it though, lol!

 

 

A great thread and article that explains it in this RC thread and RHF article.

 

IME, Algae scrubbers are great if your goals are to keep fish and softies. GL!

 

So im starting to investigate ats more and understand that they are sopposed to lower nitrates and phosphotes but you said IME they are for fish and soties, so my questions is why are you thinking that and why would they not be as good for lps/sps corals and all that?

[Andersonreefer]

That is a great question I was wondering the same thing because my understanding is that sps/lps require the highest water quality so why wouldn't an ats benefit them as well

[ReefPsyco]

I have the same question as well.

from many reputable places I have been whom have sps lps. or even the harder to keep "flower pots" they had incorporated the scrubber. one that people would be more in tone with is Inland aquatics and premium aquatics where inland having one of the largest known scrubbers with it being noted these are attached to their coral displays and fish.. I never really wanted to question it before afraid of being insulting to do so sense its been asked though I figured i would jump in and relate my experience. (I had a major crash cause of phosphates) i incorporated the scrubber with GREAT results and NO chemical use. My problem was solved.

I have SPS SPP and LPS. i fill if I did not incorporate the scrubber I would had lost my prized acros. as they was not looking so happy. after the scrubber they are the best they have ever looked.

 

This is coming from a None chemical tank aspects and Opinion.

 

Where i have Personally seen the Partie's tank that is at subject of questioning. an his tank is downright amazing. Absolutely stunning.

 

So this is where it comes to play. IME..... is exactly that. Everyone newb. novice, intermediate, or advanced. Should ALWAYS read and read tons. but all that reading you do you must only take in like you take in a grain of salt. everything you read is on the basis of that person environment. NO SINGLE tank is alike so all must be treated as an experiment backed up with studied facts. IE turf scrubber if you wish to not use chemicals is a studied fact.

 

the problem with ANY use of ANY thing you use in your tank no matter what it is mechanical biomechanical or 100% natural to pure chemicals. EVERYTHING has its draws backs period.

 

Once more for those that hung in there this long to read it all. No tank is established or to where you want it overnight. Most tanks are Never where you want them so the best friend in this hobby is the virtue of patience and your own experimenting from others opinions. cause they are only that opinions.

[sdebord]

Short answer - allelopathy

 

My reservations are mainly based upon building and using a Adey style turf scrubber many, many years ago. Eventually, I could not maintain SPS in the system, and LPS also did not thrive without very frequent sizable water changes- on the order of 25 percent weekly just to stave off STN/RTN. The issue didn't resolve itself until the ATS was removed. Correlation isn't absolute proof of a conclusion, of course - but that was my experience and it matches my observation of other ATS systems as well.

 

Did you take a close look at the systems at our visit to Inland Aquatics a few months back? Their systems are nearly completely devoid of SPS, and there are also very few LPS as well. They had a tank or two with LPS and SPS frags, but they were raised and brought in from a vendor, not raised in-house.

 

Here is an article that can explain more and specifically mentions non-contact interactions for more sensitive SPS corals - Macroalgal terpenes function as allopathic agents against reef corals

 

From the article..

 

"Recent laboratory studies demonstrated that macroalgae near

but not in contact with corals triggered coral mortality and suggested

that algae release water-soluble compounds that kill corals

indirectly by stimulation of harmful coral-associated microbes

(17). Field studies indicate that benthic algae release hydrophilic

molecules, such as dissolved organic carbon (DOC), capable of

fueling these interactions (36, 37). However, in our field assays,

where advection would disperse and dilute such compounds rapidly,

we did not detect macroalgal effects beyond sites of direct

contact for eitherM. digitata (Fig. 1) or P. cylindrica (18), as would

be expected for interactions involving hydrophilic molecules. We

detected algal effects beyond areas of direct contact in the more

chemically sensitive corals (A. millepora and P. damicornis)"

 

Advection is very limited in a closed system, such as an aquarium, BTW.

 

JMTC & GL!

[sdebord]

.... i fill if I did not incorporate the scrubber I would had lost my prized acros. as they was not looking so happy. after the scrubber they are the best they have ever looked...

 

 

Which tank was this? The one that smoked SPS due to extremely low salinity after the frag swap, or the one filled with old rock and old sand that had .5 ppm Phosphates last week. I'm confused..

 

Amazing turn around.. Hard to take these results as long-term success by any means.

[Andersonreefer]

Ok so what do you guys think my best course of action should be for a tank with high Phos with mainly sps corals? Where is the cheapest place to buy a reactor or does anyone have one they would get rid of

[larry]

For a sps tank I would lean toward a GFO solution even though I had success with my ats. I tend to like corals that prefer nutrient rich water. That can be another name for dirty water.

[fish clown]

Why is absolutly nothing in this hobby anywhere close to easy??? I may try an ats because some of you have had succes with them and I would love to do less frequent water changes. To solve the issue with the alge letting of stuff could you remove it weekly instead of every other week or put a filter sock below the ats before it touches the water? How often would you do a water change with ATS for a 75G reef tank w/ a 20G refugium(I am currently doing a 15% water change every other week)??? I have 90lbs of LR and a skimmer rated to 150G.

[ReefPsyco]

Which tank was this? The one that smoked SPS due to extremely low salinity after the frag swap, or the one filled with old rock and old sand that had .5 ppm Phosphates last week. I'm confused..

 

Amazing turn around.. Hard to take these results as long-term success by any means.

the frag swapp low salanity and bad ppm is all the same tank my observations is from a tank i had previous. the tank has been sold sense then. i ran the turf for six months. I am sure i have photo from it floating around some where if you would like to see them..... I currentl am NOT running a turf scruber from pure lazziness. An after reading the presented article I am second guessing it. Especialy further more after seeing your tank. Like stated before I know you do not run one and your tank is beautifull. It was NO attack at you.

[ChrisP]

I've had my ATS up for a year. I have done three water changes and the next one is in October. I'm not sure if I need to do the water changes but I figure doing 2 or 3 a year is pretty manageable. My problem is getting my phosphates too low. I also discovered not too long ago I'm growing sponges. I've heard those are hard to maintain and mine just appeared on its own from a frag I'm guessing. There are probably a lot of things I could do better on my tank but I feel like the ATS has saved me in keeping corals and messy predator fish.

[Andersonreefer]

Awesome could you post a pic of your ats?

[Dustin1300]

Awesome could you post a pic of your ats?

 

Here's a pic of mine over my 125 gallon sump. I'm considering taking it down as I've still yet to see a successful SPS/LPS tank that runs an ATS! Steve adds to that skepticism with some of the articles he posted and I've read...The maintenance involved is just as much as doing partial water changes IMO and water changes don't STINK!

 

Basic components:

 

TEEs off my manifold for easy flow adjustment and shutting off for maintenance:

 

Lights on:

[larry]

That is exactly like my old setup except I let the screen touch the water to reduce noise.

[Dustin1300]

That is exactly like my old setup except I let the screen touch the water to reduce noise.

 

That's actually a good point. I ended up extending mine with another few inches of smooth/unroughed screen so the water would enter the sump without splashing. Now I don't get any splashing like I did when it dropped 4-5 inches. I also added a splash guard on this side with a piece of 3/8" acrylic I had from building the sump. (Don't have any pics of the extended screen below water surface)

 

[sdebord]

There are many paths to success, and ATS are good for some applications, but can create difficulties for others IME. Maybe with enough skimming, or activated carbon, who knows.. There are very few absolutes. RP, no offense taken and no pictures needed. Just curious of your advice in light of recent issues.

 

Personally, I started organic carbon dosing about a week ago with vinegar, following the methods used by the resident chemists (Randy, Tom, and Cliff) on RC which I have been studying for several months. Recently, I had observed my phosphates on rise from my normal .02-.03 ppm to .07 and decided to take the plunge into carbon dosing. So far, I have reduced phosphates back down to .04 using only regular manual doses of vinegar, and a good skimmer. I'm currently at 24ml total divided over 3 doses/day. I'll have a Drew's doser dosing pump delivered later this week to provide the vinegar in smaller, and more frequent automated fashion, and continue to monitor/observe my results. My use is somewhat out of the ordinary as I've never had measurable Nitrates in my system beyond the firs 60 days. Nitrate reduction is another proven benefit (requirement?) of a bacterially-driven, carbon-dosed system. So far, so good!