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QT and Copper question - Fallout from Ich outbreak


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I recently converted my 75g to a 150g and have never QT'd in the past. My Kole Tang showed signs of ich the next day and died, a few days later one of my clowns showed signs of ich. This made me panic, start doing research with the understanding that I had to remove my fish from the DT or they were all going to die. I bought a 40B, setup a heater, aqua clear, temp gauge and sea chem ammonia badge. I put a sponge out of my sump into the tank to help give it some sort of biological filter.

 

I start with 4 fish; 2 clowns, a kole tang and a purple dottyback.

I dose cuppermine to the recommended .25mg/L for 48hrs and then another .25mg/L to get it up to .5mg/L.

Day 1 wake up to a dead clown. I add the rest of the .25mg/L at the 24hr mark instead of 48hr because of the death. (right or wrong, at this time I don't know but I'm panicing)

Day 3 KT and Dotty back are dead.

Day 4 my test kit arrives in the mail and my copper is at .5mg/L as it should be. (prior to the test I thought I overdosed)

Day 4 my last clown is also showing signs of Ich. I maintain parameters hoping time is on my side.

Day 6 the Ich parasites appear to be gone and the clown is looking/behaving like normal.

Day 7 check clown in morning, looks great. Has been eating well the last few days, etc. Day 7.5 clown dead.

 

So now I don't know what to do. I'm definitely going to QT everything from this point forward. Does Ich kill things that fast or was it the stress of copper? (or both) Do I keep copper in my QT going forward or only put it in if I see Ich? From this experience I really am left without learning everything. Very sad. I killed all of my fish. :(

 

Any advice is appreciated. I've read a lot about hospital tanks, QT tanks, etc... but I don't ever want to go through this again.

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I have never done a copper treatment, but from what I've learned you need to increase the levels of copper very slowly. I would only max out at .4mg/l and do this over the course of several days.

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That would make sense. Fish 1 died from ich/stress and Fish 2/3 died from copper being at .5mg/l too quickly. (I disregarded the instructions to add half and wait 48hrs due to panic)

 

So it sounds like you would never add fish to a QT with 0.5mg/l, but add the fish and add copper later if you observe anything?

 

So the other weird thing, my last fish that I said died today, was on it's side barely breathing and quit moving for an hour. It was actually floating around on the bottom from the current, lifeless. I let it sit like this for an hour before I determined it was dead and when I went to net it to flush he sprung to life and seems fine again. Weird stuff...

 

I put in carbon to start removing the copper. I know it's not long enough and the ich may return since I didn't wait 2 weeks but I don't think he is strong enough at this point to continue with the copper at it's current strength.

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Was the QT tank cycled? Did you check ammonia and nitrite, nitrate? If tank was not yet cycled you may have had an ammonia spike and that along with the ich may have contributed to the death of the fish. You can buy an ammonia badge to put in tank and this will help you to see right away if ammonia is getting high. It may not be the most accurate but will give you a good indication that ammonia is present and you need to do a water change. Other wise test for ammonia and nitrates every day.

 

When I set up a QT tank in an emergency and have not time to cycle it I will use the old tank water not freshly made salt water,( unless your parameters are not in check). I keep freshly made salt water on hand for water changes in case of ammonia or nitrate spike. And if adding that many fish to an non cycled tank you will have ammonia spikes. I use Seachem's Cupramine and using the direction on the bottle I figure out how many drop of product equals smaller gals. Example, 16 drops = 10.5 gals of tank water, so I divide it down to get how many drops for 1 gal. So when I do a water change I know how many drops of product to add back in for the amount of water change I did. If I make 1.3 gal water change I add 2 drops of cupramine back in tank to keep my levels of copper at the right amount. Does that make sense? And of course test the copper levels also and adjust accordingly.

 

When I am setting up a new tank I will first set up my QT tank and get it cycled before I start buying fish. Then I go slow and not add to many fish to QT at one time to avoid ammonia and nitrite, nitrate spikes, just like you would for the display tank. I keep fish in Qt for 6 weeks if all is good then add them to display. Do not add any more fish is QT tank during this 6 week period or you will have to start the 6 week time period all over again. Go slow! Some people will always treat new fish with cupramine and PraziPro as a precaution and some wait and see if anything develops. I always treat new fish and have had good luck with this method. Decide which method is best for you and go from there.

 

And before adding new fish to QT do large water change and use carbon to remove copper and start fresh.

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Sorry but as an opposing viewpoint from someone with lots of experience with ich and treating it...

You may want to read this:

I don't recommend QT, personally. Healthy water, cycled systems, proper nutrition, selected fish introduction (healthy and eating only), and infrequent fish introduction (not several fish at once) have always kept me in the clear.

QT, Copper, Hypo salinity, have always killed 10x more fish IMO. Stress, stress, and stress.

 

http://indmas.org/main/index.php/topic/12291-old-topic-new-thoughts-ich-quarantining-and-survival/?hl=copper

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I have had lots of experience with ich as well. There are many different methods and everyone has there own opinion and way of doing things. I am just giving my preferred method. It is up to each person to decide which is best for them. In my experience I would not add any fish without QT first. It can be hit or miss with any and all methods. My fish loss is far less with my method and that is why I use it.

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My ich outbreak was a new addition to the tank, a purple tang. He came from an established tank with no none history of it and so after acclimation I set him free. He had a tough three days and that's why made him "pop" I guess. He is settled now and has been fighting and eating since first day and this morning the spots were almost gone so fingers crossed. I wish I had the ability to qt and hopefully I will by this fall.

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Hey, I appreciate the replies and opposing viewpoints. I agree everyone has a way that's been successful (or unsuccessful!) to them. ;)

 

Mrsbugmaster,

Ammonia Spike - had a sponge from old tank and have the seachem badge, don't think it was it.

Cupramine - used it per directions but did add the 2nd part of the dosage at 12hrs instead of 48hrs since i had a death.

QT - i'm doing it from now on since i already have the tank setup, may as well use it and it will force me to go slow and not impulse buy.

 

I think my moving them from tank to tank w/o acclimating may of been what added up on the stress. I bought some thing that holds a bag and has a bucket of water for the drip/float method combo on Amazon so hopefully that will help too.

 

Do you treat with cupramine BEFORE you add them to QT or after they have been in it for a week or two?

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I put new fish in Qt and wait 5 to 7 days before doing any treatment. I try to get them eating before adding any treatment. If fish is not eating it may be flukes or may be just stress. At 5 to 7 days I start a PraziPro treatment for 7 days. do water changes as needed and maintain good water quality. Then at the end of 7 days I do a water change and start Cupramine treatment. If I see any signs of trouble from the cupramine treatment I do a large water change and run carbon. Monitoring the fish as not all fish react well to the treatment. At end of 2 weeks I do large water change and run carbon and watch fish for any signs of disease or illness. If I do see ich on fish in Qt I will keep them in Qt for up to 8 weeks or longer untill no signs of ich appear for 4 weeks. At end of qt period and fish go in display I do a large water change before adding my next fish to qt tank.If it is a longer period before adding another fish I will feed a few flakes or pellets once a week to the tank to keep it cycled. When I am stocking a new tank my qt tank is set up the whole time until I have my display tank stocked.

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I put all my fish in a QT tank once because one fish showed ich. 5 days later they were all dead because of an ammonia spike. Since then I dont QT and havent lost any fish to ich since. Like stated above there are many ways to do this you just have to figure out what works for you.

 

For me I am very selective on my fish. Feed fairly heavy with selcon and garlic. Thats what works for me.

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I put new fish in Qt and wait 5 to 7 days before doing any treatment. I try to get them eating before adding any treatment. If fish is not eating it may be flukes or may be just stress. At 5 to 7 days I start a PraziPro treatment for 7 days. do water changes as needed and maintain good water quality. Then at the end of 7 days I do a water change and start Cupramine treatment. If I see any signs of trouble from the cupramine treatment I do a large water change and run carbon. Monitoring the fish as not all fish react well to the treatment. At end of 2 weeks I do large water change and run carbon and watch fish for any signs of disease or illness. If I do see ich on fish in Qt I will keep them in Qt for up to 8 weeks or longer untill no signs of ich appear for 4 weeks. At end of qt period and fish go in display I do a large water change before adding my next fish to qt tank.If it is a longer period before adding another fish I will feed a few flakes or pellets once a week to the tank to keep it cycled. When I am stocking a new tank my qt tank is set up the whole time until I have my display tank stocked.

WOW I commend you for that processes. Who has the patience for that? I am seriously impressed.

 

I don't have the time to go through that process, but if everyone did that would probably work 90-99% of the time.

 

My biggest issue is when people QT fish and say because it didn't shown signs it doesn't have ich. B.S. It does, it's just not showing signs. Stress it a lot, and it will appear. So unless someone effectively treats with hypo or copper--- these fish that have been in DT have ich, and if stressed or other inhabitants in new tank are stressed, they can all get ich.

 

Additionally, I have treated with proper copper levels for 8 weeks+ and kept my DT Fallow many many times, only to have ich re-appear within days of re-introduction. The enormous bio load shift also causes issues when re-introducing so you need continued higher maintenance and water changes. I used to keep copper at 2x level (tried twice) for the full 8 weeks. The survivors showed signs of ich within 2-3 days from re-introduction. I just don't believe that copper works anymore, and had the same (but not as much experience) with hypo salinity treatment. I tested copper with every test in the book. Spent a small fortune, fortune of time, and stress that made me want to leave this hobby going through all those shenanigans only to kill off my fish! GRR

 

So I commend you for your success and what a process though. If it works, all the power to you keep it up! :)

 

Slight side note: Angels have next to zero tolerance to copper. They develop cloudy eyes or stop eating and die within 1 - 7 days in even half the recommended doses of copper. I kept buying more and DT'ing them as I was told that it was a fluke and cupramine was safer. I tried cupramine and coppersafe. I LITERALLY killed 10-15 flame angels, 3 coral beauty, and 2 bi-colors by trying this. I also killed a blue face angel with copper treatment and a koran angel. It's a disaster. I felt absolutely terrible and I kept going with "conventional wisdom" that stated the only way to add angels is to use copper and QT as I was told by many.

 

My VERY FIRST flame angel I didn't treat or quarantine, did perfectly. Bought another for another tank. No issues. Heck I even have two Potters Angels that are thriving, and Lord knows they're tough to keep! Hyposalinity is harder to maintain at perfect levels and thus less effective than copper, IMO. Angels also don't do well in salinity swings, IMO. If you want to keep Angels my advice is to observe them for weeks before buying, and pray for the best.

 

Most other fish do fine with copper, however.

 

I DO submit to you though, that if in the small chance you DO succeed in keeping ich out of your display tanks, the first second you slip up and add a fish with ich, their immune systems will all have zero tolerance for the parasite and it will take them over quickly.

 

My 180's inhabitants are all so resistant to it that when I add a new tang (powder blue). It went through the ich cycle. One week of looking awful covered in ich that started off mild, it died. No other inhabitants ever showed spots or symptoms. They continued life as if nothing was wrong. It's a great problem to have, they thrive and I don't worry. I feel bad for the powder though, but had I QT him my DT still has ich in it, he still would have contracted it. He was weak and wasn't going to make it anyway, IMO. But at least I didn't introduce a PBT that had ich and wiped out my whole tank (had that happen before)

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Has anyone here tried using a product that has Metronidazole in it, such as Seachem? I am putting together my QT tank for my first addition and don't want to use copper unless I have tried a couple others with no success first. I thought of using a combination of that with a garlic product for my new additions. Any thoughts on this?

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Has anyone here tried using a product that has Metronidazole in it, such as Seachem? I am putting together my QT tank for my first addition and don't want to use copper unless I have tried a couple others with no success first. I thought of using a combination of that with a garlic product for my new additions. Any thoughts on this?

 

I am a firm believer that only three things kill ich. I've never heard of anyone having success with anything else.

 

1) Copper

 

2) Hyposalinity

 

3) Mother nature/Immunity (starving the parasite away largely)

 

EDIT: I suspect a nuke might also kill them.

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Sometimes I even doubt that lol

 

LOL yeah it's pretty persistent. I've not even had luck killing it with copper or hypo. While copper is in the water it's gone but as soon as it's gone (even after 8 weeks +) ich returns.

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Dammit, I definitely did the wrong thing then! Ah well I am on the course now. If I put him back in the DT now he'll only get more stressed.

 

I haven't added copper, but I have QT'd him and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future.

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